Dreaming of a runaround

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Roseman Roseman
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Dreaming of a runaround

Hello everyone,
I been thinking for years about building a Riviera runaround and have finally decided to do so. I'm interested in knowing about documentation. A kit car has to have Single Vehicle Approval to be used on the roads.  Do home made boats have to have any kind of approval to be used in Uk and International waters?
Regards, Jeff.
Jeremy Jeremy
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

Welcome!

If you build a boat just for your own use, and don't sell it or give it away for five years after the  completion of the build, then there is no need for any sort of testing, approval, certification etc and nothing like the hassle of SVA for home built cars and motorcycles.

If you do decide to sell it (or even give it away) before the 5 years are up, then you need to get the boat certified under the Recreational Craft Directive rules.  Some boats are exempt from this (canoes, for example) but all powered craft have to comply.  Getting certification for small home built boats is a challenge, and pretty expensive, so most choose to just keep their boats until the time when they don't need it.

The only regulation you'll be faced with is the need for licensing if you use the boat on inland waterways or canals, not that onerous, just a fee to the relevant authority for the waterway in question.  You will probably also need insurance to use the boat in some areas.
Roseman Roseman
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

That's completely useful information Jeremy, thank you. I searched for Recreational Craft Directive and went straight to the British Marine Federation site. It looks as though the five year rule is probably associated with some form of capital gains tax. The next thing for me to understand I think is the craft identification number system which for DIY is apparently handled by the Royal Yachting Association.

One question that does come to mind: I build a boat, I use it for 5 years and then decide to sell it. It won't have any of the aforesaid mentioned malarkey of CE etc. Will that create any problems for the buyer? How can the buyer prove that the vessel is at least 5 years old?
Timmo Timmo
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

While Jeremy is considerably more learned than I on these subjects I have jumped through the hoops of registration for my Acorn Skiff prior to taking her abroad. Didn't seem to be any need to do so for use in the UK (though she is unpowered which may make a difference.)

Two things I had to do:

Contact the RYA and fill out the Craft ID number application:


That gets you a HIN.

For some reason connected with going abroad I also seemed to have to register the boat with the Part III Small Ships Register. Can't remember why (insurance perhaps?) and I may have been overdoing things! I needed the HIN from the RYA first. 


That will get you an SS number to display on the boat as well as the HIN.

Registration the boat is clearly one way of proving her age should you come to sell her. Some buyers may be bothered by the lack of full CE registration, many won't. There are costs involved in acquiring full registration that I understand can be quite steep for one boat (manufacturers go for type approval and then approval of the quality processes that ensure consistency of construction as evidence every boat then made is compliant.) You can offset what you save on not going for full approval against any lowering of potential value of the boat to a buyer.

It has been noted by a number of people that CE registration on a used boat is moderately irrelevant. While it may have complied when first sold ongoing use, modification and wear will inevitably change parameters that contributed to the boat meeting that standard. Addition of extra buoyancy, for example, may improve things! Therefore as a boat ages less attention should be paid to any initial registration anyway. Bit like an MOT, useful indicator (and worth money) if it's new, but if it was 11 months ago you'd probably ignore it.

Have fun building!

Tim.


On 30 Jul 2012, at 08:18, Roseman [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

That's completely useful information Jeremy, thank you. I searched for Recreational Craft Directive and went straight to the British Marine Federation site. It looks as the the five year rule is probably associated with some form of capital gains tax. the next thing for me to understand I think is the craft identification number system which for DIY is apparently handled by the Royal Yachting Association.

One question that does come to mind: I build a boat, I use it for 5 years and then decide to sell it. It won't have any of the aforesaid mentioned malarkey of CE etc. Will that create any problems for the buyer? How can the buyer prove that the vessel is at least 5 years old?


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Jeremy Jeremy
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

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The five year rule was put in because manufacturers wanted to suppress home built boats being sold, so creating competition for them.  It was boat manufacturers who drafted, or had the most significant input into drafting, the RCD.  There was a strong element of business protectionism at work in the RCD, I'm afraid!

No need to worry about Craft Identification Numbers, they are only needed if you are going for RCD compliance, and 99% of home built boats don't bother with the RCD at all, at least here in the UK (other EU countries can be a lot tougher, though).  You don't need anything in the way of any sort of compliance paperwork, registration numbers or whatever if using the boat in UK coastal waters or on the tidal part of waterways.  

You do need the appropriate waterways licence/permit when using the boat on rivers or canals, but that has no connection with the RCD and anyone can buy a permit for, say, the Thames or the whole canal network, or even the Broads, either by the day, or for longer periods.  Some inland waterways authorities (notably the Broads) require that you have insurance, but again that doesn't mean having any sort of RCD paperwork or a CIN.

If you sell the boat 5 years after "putting it into service" (as the RCD refers to it) then you don't need any paperwork at all, in fact you don't even need to prove that it is actually five years old..........  The RCD simply doesn't apply to home built boats at all if they are built, used for more than five years and then sold.  There are still thousands of pre-RCD boats around, anyway, as boats tend to last a long time if looked after and the RCD is a relatively new EU thing.


hespj hespj
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

In reply to this post by Roseman
All the following is my understanding of the situation.

"It looks as though the five year rule is probably associated with some form of capital gains tax."

I don't think so, but I'd be very interested to see that info if you can link to it. On the one hand it would be too heavy handed to say NO home built boats allowed, and if one does allow home built boats one can't expect the owner to keep them forever or saw them up.


"The next thing for me to understand I think is the craft identification number system which for DIY is apparently handled by the Royal Yachting Association."

As far as I know Craft Identification Number (CIN) is part of the RCD and doesn't apply to boats that needn't comply. The RCD wouldn't work unless boats had identification numbers, the boat's CIN being like a cars registration number, tying it to it's documentation. If there's no documentation there's no need for a CIN.


"One question that does come to mind: I build a boat, I use it for 5 years and then decide to sell it. It won't have any of the aforesaid mentioned malarkey of CE etc. Will that create any problems for the buyer?"

It might create a problem for you in that in theory buyers might not want to buy a non-complying boat, but in reality this doesn't seem to be the case for small boats. There might also be some issues with taking the boat elsewhere in the EU, and I think others  on this forum have experience of that.


"How can the buyer prove that the vessel is at least 5 years old?"

He/she doesn't need to, it's you who are breaking the law if the boat is placed on the market before the five years have elapsed. As far as I know there's no law against buying such a boat. In this respect it would pay to get some sort of documentation together of launch day - photos, receipts etc.


John
Jeremy Jeremy
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My last post crossed with Tim's.  It seems you may possibly need to get a HIN if you need to register the boat on the Small Ships Register (SSR, and it's voluntary, not mandatory), but that's a new one on me, as there are thousands of boats with SSRs that don't have a HIN, my old boat included.

There's no reason, AFAIK, to bother with getting an SSR, unless:

1 -  You are specifically taking the boat abroad somewhere where they have a rule that needs one (and I'm not at all sure that even then you need an SSR if just taking the boat on holiday - many people take small boats abroad on trailers without them, it seems.

2 -  You want to go to sea and carry either a registered EPIRB (distress beacon) or DSC radio, neither of which are things a runaround is ever likely to need.

Who wants to be bothered with a lot of bureaucratic stuff that almost certainly doesn't apply to the vast majority who build boats for themselves?

I'd just forget all about paperwork and get on with the build!
Timmo Timmo
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround


On 30 Jul 2012, at 10:17, Jeremy [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

I'd just forget all about paperwork and get on with the build!

Seconded!

Tim.
hespj hespj
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

Thirded.
Roseman Roseman
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

Fourthed.

That's all completely useful information guys. One final question that emerges from this whole discussion though and just as a matter of interest: I build a boat, a really nice one, I go abroad with it and someone likes the cut of its jib. They make me an offer I can't refuse and I sell it to them. The boats six months old, i.e. less than five years. What happens? Do I go to prison upon retuning to the Uk or do I just pay a fine or a tax something?
BrianP BrianP
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

Wondering what plans were available for a Riviera type boat, it was a surprise to find free plans for one.

http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RunaboutsInboard/riviera

Cannot load the pics up for some reason.

Brian



Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

Fifthed!

And without even touching the Sauvignon.  I think you are extremely unlikely to have the RCD police catch up with you and it seems to me the only way you can really get into trouble is that if while using the vessel, the buyer is involved in an accident to himself or some third party, then you are technically responsible.  I wonder if that includes after his part of the five illegal years....

"What is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

One is a scum-sucking bottom-dweller and the other is a fish."

Don't blame me, I'm just quoting Paul Newman

Christo the W

Timmo Timmo
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

In reply to this post by Roseman
Depends who finds out!

There are countries in the EU where the law is much more strictly enforced than others as well as countries where adherence to the plethora of EU regulations is more relaxed (sometimes the same countries!)

If the buyer instigated the transaction (you did not seek a sale) and then bought in the full knowledge of it's non CE registration and you had not misrepresented the boat in any way the extent of your transgression and any attendant  consequences may be minimal. The offence may actually be theirs.

I've cribbed the following from http://www.maltayachtsurveys.com/Used_boats_and_RCD.html. It's advice aimed at buyers.

Consequences 
 
 The enforcement authorities of any EEA Member State can take action to remove a non-compliant boat from their waters.  
 Even if you are not responsible for the placing on the market, when the craft is discovered it could be suspended from being used until it is made compliant and ultimately, it could be ordered to be destroyed.  
 Most non-compliant boats can be made to comply, through a Post construction Assessment (PCA) but there is a cost involved. It could be you that foots the bill.  
 A non-compliant boat is not worth as much as a compliant one.  
 Your insurance cover may be invalid.  
 A non-compliant boat never gains compliance just because it has been used for some time.  
 From the 1st January 2006, inboard petrol and diesel engines must have type approval and meet strict emissions and noise levels. It is unlikely that a used engine will be able to meet the requirements.

None of those would impact on you as the seller. There may be other consequences not listed here though.

It seems to me that all you need to do is get paperwork signed by the buyer stating that they are aware the craft must be CE registered before they use it and they take full responsibility for taking steps to acquire that registration. Then it's up to them what they do.

Still begs the question how the authorities in this other EU country would know the boat was younger than 5 years when it was acquired by its new owner. Any equipment that was clearly newer than 5 years old could simply be recent modifications or upgrades.

Recalling an earlier exchange on this topic the 5 years starts counting down from the moment the boat is first used, not completed. There was a suggestion that a plank of wood could be 'launched' and subsequent additions to that plank be regarded as modifications.

Tim.



On 30 Jul 2012, at 11:40, Roseman [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Fourthed.

That's all completely useful information guys. One final question that emerges from this whole discussion though and just as a matter of interest: I build a boat, a really nice one, I go abroad with it and someone likes the cut of its jib. They make me an offer I can't refuse and I sell it to them. The boats six months old, i.e. less than five years. What happens? Do I go to prison upon retuning to the Uk or do I just pay a fine or a tax something?


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hespj hespj
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

In reply to this post by Roseman
"I build a boat, a really nice one, I go abroad with it and someone likes the cut of its jib. They make me an offer I can't refuse and I sell it to them. The boats six months old, i.e. less than five years. What happens? Do I go to prison upon retuning to the Uk or do I just pay a fine or a tax something?"

I'm no lawyer but I can't say I agree with Tim. The RCD guidelines specifically state that doing what you suggest as a seller could result in a fine (£3k is it?) or imprisonment (3 months I seem to remember). What the buyer thinks and does may or may not incriminate him/her, but that's irrelevant surely?

No doubt customs will wonder why you crossed a border with a boat and recrossed without. Questions might be asked.

John

Jeremy Jeremy
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Roseman wrote
Fourthed.

That's all completely useful information guys. One final question that emerges from this whole discussion though and just as a matter of interest: I build a boat, a really nice one, I go abroad with it and someone likes the cut of its jib. They make me an offer I can't refuse and I sell it to them. The boats six months old, i.e. less than five years. What happens? Do I go to prison upon retuning to the Uk or do I just pay a fine or a tax something?
Pretty much the same as would happen if you went abroad and sold a car, motorcycle or whatever, you'd probably get into hot water with some authority somewhere, be it over there or over here.  I'd guess that people like customs would take an interest in what amounts to an unofficial export, as well as all the various problems with registration etc.

I happen to have a "free" personalised car registration, obtained because the chap that had the old car with that number on had sold the car abroad and couldn't face doing battle with the authorities over getting it de-registered, sorting out the customs paperwork for export etc.  I did all this for him in return for keeping the number plate (which happened to have my initials).  Took me around two weeks of work and a mountain of paper................

So far the RCD isn't being enforced, AFAICS, and any homebuilt boat is, to all intents and purposes, free from all regulatory hassle.  Best not go looking for problems unless they really come and smack you between the eyes, in my view.
alopenboat alopenboat
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

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On 30 Jul 2012 at 3:40, Roseman [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

> That's all completely useful information guys. One final question that
> emerges from this whole discussion though and just as a matter of
> interest: I build a boat, a really nice one, I go abroad with it and
> someone likes the cut of its jib. They make me an offer I can't refuse
> and I sell it to them. The boats six months old, i.e. less than five
> years. What happens? Do I go to prison upon retuning to the Uk or do I
> just pay a fine or a tax something?
>

From observation of actual cases, absolutely nothing happens as there
is no-one (in the uk, at least) policing it.

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

I've lost count....

I sold a car to a French man, I just ticked the box on the V5 to say it had gone abroad, and that was that. Its been nearly a year and I've heard nothing yet.

I sold a boat to a Dutchman, its been five years and I haven't heard anything yet. In fact I haven't heard anything from him since................................

It was harder trying to sell him my trailer, I couldn't because it didn't have a CE mark.

Customs wanted to know why I was bringing an empty trailer into the country.

So to sum up, unless you are thinking of going into the export business you don't need to do anything regarding the dreadful RCD.

Graham



Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

I'm with Graham - who cares what happens. MilliBee is 6 years old and not a single official problem...all I hear is praise and admiration for building her.

Paul

Sent from my HTC phone



Say NO to Brexit. Kick it into the long grass
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adminHBBR wrote
all I hear is praise and admiration for building her.
And rousing cheers every time you chop another bit off!  

Sent from my AMSTRAD.  
BrianP BrianP
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Re: Dreaming of a runaround

Although I have tended to side with Paul and Graham on the issue of RCD compliance, we do have an opportunity here.

We have quite a spread of skills from all the contributors to this thread. It would be really interesting to work together through the process, combining all our different skills and abilities to crack this difficult, or apparently difficult, issue.

For example, i have worked all my adult life in manufacturing. Often supplying components to major blue chip companies like Ford, Volvo and others. So I have a feel for the process. However these days details seem to just jumble in my head, but I think I can help with approach.

For example, the process is about defining things and then show how you stick to those processes.

I know John Hesp is seriously looking at RCD and it could be a great help to John if we had a go at say his new Rowboat design and worked through RCD and produced a real result. All of us learning in the meantime and possibly producing a process which other designs we choose to build could be put through in a straight forward way.

The process would be something like:

1)The design would be analysed to show mathematically how it meets RCD requirements.
2)Then materials would be selected to show how they meet the design.
3)Supply and quality of materials defined so the materials are as specified.
4)Build process defined. Actual build process proven.
5)Real world test defined. Actual real world test carried out.

1) would be achieved by John's computer design programs
2) hopefully computer design again
3) Materials supplied by say Robbins would be quality assured. Epoxy by West. etc
4) John writes a build manual. Take photographs of the build to show process met.
5) Looking at articles by Francois Vivier the real world tests are in flat water no wind situation, which is straight forward even if not realistic in the true situations of capsizing.

The question is - can the paperwork be understood well enough to secure the process. John Claridge manages for his Scows, and the Daves at Solway Dory also managed for their sailing canoes.

Can costs be kept low. Does anyone know?

Brian
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