Evolving 'Polly Wee'

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BrianP BrianP
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

Ross Lillistone has written a very good piece about panel development for S+T hulls here

http://rosslillistonewoodenboat.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/low-powered-planing-hull-lessons-learnt.html

Well worth reading.

Brian
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

In reply to this post by BrianP
Right then, where was I?

Brian – Ross Lillistone still seems dreadful complicated to me.  Most of the cutting lines for ‘Octavia’ and ‘Katie Beardie’, as well as ‘Polly Wee’ are actually long straight bits, joined with the fewest possible very ordinary ‘fair curves’.  The thing that appears to make them all as shapely as people may, or may not consider they are, is the simple but progressive curves and twists that I attempt to inflict on sheets of perfectly innocent ply.

I also feel he should qualify his comments on hollow versus appley-bows and ‘straight buttock lines’ aft.  This may very reasonably apply to a ‘low powered’, or any other planing hull, but for our boats the majority of the time is spent well below ‘hull-speed’ and who wants to spend a day rowing a mealy-mouthed, barn-door-butt girl around, or coaxing the same along under sail, in a whisper?

Not I Guv’nor.

The old salts, used to say “A cod’s head and mackerel tail, makes a boat which is sure to sail”.  While I don’t entirely agree with them, as to me a hull should follow nature’s lead and look a bit like the submerged sections of a water-bird; they obviously knew a thing or two.

Anders – I defer to your greater knowledge on correctly measuring the ‘depth’ of a boat.  However on this occasion, I also know that having built one, Paulie has a lateral bollard problem, (see my original comments on measurements on page one) and would have to turn the thing on its side presenting the least actual dimension in order to get it down a narrow passageway, past his house and out of the garden*.  In this case that dimension is from its ‘top notch’ – the stem head, to the outside of its bottom and that’s where ‘Polly Wee’ measures thirty seven and a half inches, so on these grounds I beg to be forgiven

*Unless he’s thinking of starting a sailing club outside the kitchen

Pragmatissimus
Jeremy Jeremy
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

Chris Waite wrote
The old salts, used to say “A cod’s head and mackerel tail, makes a boat which is sure to sail”.  While I don’t entirely agree with them, as to me a hull should follow nature’s lead and look a bit like the submerged sections of a water-bird; they obviously knew a thing or two.
My introduction to boats and sailing was on a boat shaped just like that, as are pretty much all the working boats around the Fal (Quay Punts, Falmouth Working Boats etc).  Maximum beam is always ahead of amidships and they seem to break the rules with regard to centre of effort vs centre of lateral resistance by having their maximum keel depth right at the transom.

I've just dug out a photo on the web of the very boat that introduced me to sailing (and racing) in 1976, as you can just see, she follows the "cod's head, mackerels tail" shape:




Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

Ah Jeremy, you have me started now

'Twas exactly one of those that I ordered rather than buy a house, after I had started my time in the Navy in 1976.  The theory was that the only place they could send me where I couldn't live on board would have been Yeovilton, but that is a different story.  Fifth out of the (Gaffers and Luggers) mould and the first with a cabin:

 

The Minister and I actually got her as far as the Aegean and back:



CeeDub
Jeremy Jeremy
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

This post was updated on .
Funny old world, isn't it?

The late Toby West (ex-"boyfriend" of my ex-mother-in-law during the war) was my sailing tutor on "Victory".  My first sailing experience was as main sheet hand in the St Mawes regatta, with a rude introduction to the heavy-drinking, ruthlessly competitive world of summer working boat racing.  The crew were expected to carry the semi-comatose Toby back on board at closing time and endeavour to get Victory back to her mooring below Toby's fish shop on High St.

Victory was built in 1896, as I recall, and was still working back in the 70's/80's, with Toby fishing in summer, oyster dredging in winter and being the lifeboat skipper all year round.  When racing they were massively over-sailed, with the big bow sprit fitted to allow the yankee to be set, plus a fair size tops'l, when wind allowed.  Dredging was pretty much always under just a scandalised main, to keep the speed down in the river.

My lasting memory of sailing on Victory was asking Boyo (the foredeck man) if I could "dump ballast" (we'd been drinking all through the race).  Toby wouldn't stand for anyone (other than him) having their head above deck (windage!) so standing up and going over the side was out of the question.  Boyo handed me a battered paint tin, with the comment "put your thumb in the top boy, when it gets warm stop and chuck it over the side, but don't take your eye off the luff.......")
Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Chris Waite wrote
 I also know that having built one, Paulie has a lateral bollard problem, (see my original comments on measurements on page one) and would have to turn the thing on its side presenting the least actual dimension in order to get it down a narrow passageway, past his house and out of the garden*.  In this case that dimension is from its ‘top notch’ – the stem head, to the outside of its bottom and that’s where ‘Polly Wee’ measures thirty seven and a half inches...

*Unless he’s thinking of starting a sailing club outside the kitchen
37.5 inches would fit nicely with room to squeeze by, but don't tell Dilys.

-Paul
Anders Anders
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

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Boats with sharo and narrow rear part are very uncomfortable to sail on a reach or broad reach. They tend to dig themselves down into the water and have heavy weather helm. All the IOR rules yachts are typical examples. They are safe but uncomfortable to sail.
A wider and flatter rear part with a bigger transom is a lot more easygoing and stable hull. Remember, that the transom only drags if below the waterline, so rowing and light weather performace should not be compromised.
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

Five weeks till the raid….

The Panic Pixie is perched peevishly on my shoulder, goading me back into the garage where he dribbles epoxy on things that don’t need it and levers up splinters and hooshes dust on fresh paint and hides tools and sets traps with the broom handle, generally spreads confusion and permeates the proceedings with “What was I going to do next?”

So much for multitasking

Anyway Anders, tiddly transoms or none at all; do I deduce you don’t like the idea?  What would Collin Archer say?  I am hoping that this one is not too big and not too small, but it seems you reckon to spend time above displacement hull speed? Tell me it’s already been done way back, but I’ve been waiting months to say this, does it indicate the Dane in Spain stays mainly on the plane?

I’ve been working my way from stem to stern, more or less trying to get her up to deck level.  This is all getting rather bitty.  A problem not helped by my starting to raid the hoarded treasures lining the garage for 'Useful Pieces of Wood'. One of the first is a piece of 9 mm. marine grade ply that was due to go into an old 'Fourern' I acquired at Dell Quay something over three decades ago:



I never did renovate her conversion to a cabin cruiser and never even got her back in the water, before passing her on to another dreamer.

A mere couple of decades ago some builders decided to use the board to mix cement while my back was turned.  So it's made some rather splodgy floorboards and stern sheets, all of which are cut out, but none of which are cleaned up or fitted yet.  There's enough left to make the rudder stock and even a tad for the back of the yuloh seat.
 
Anyway, there is a miniature well behind the stem-head to take a handle; no close up yet.  Setting up an unstayed mast without doing my usual overbuilding trick has required rather more thought.  I have also been saving an old (Montague) whaler sweep for decades, the sides of the blade fell off years ago, but it can probably be made into a reasonable mast for this project.  Still it’s none too long and I don’t really want it standing in the bilge water so the foot is to be supported about four inches above the keel.  

To do this there is a substantial web between the forward bulkhead and the centreboard case, which is capped with a flat knee shaped plate sort of thing – I’m sure someone will tell me the correct term.  This is reinforced with a U –bolt, formed from some 8 mm. threaded rod, surrounding a key hole and fastened through the reinforced bulkhead base.   The keyhole is to take the foot which will have a tab on the back to prevent the mast rotating:

  

Actually it's late and the eyelids are sagging, so I'll just sling some more snaps on the bottom here - a general view showing the grubby floorboards and another with a first attempt at the bright birch stern deck.  All something of a contrast:

 
 

No, I didn't just run out of ply for the forward end of the floorboards - 'Rosie Mae' has complete ones and this raises two points.  Firstly, your feet never make it up there because it's beneath the foredeck and secondly, every time you need to get into the bilges to drag out the anchor, or bail, or find beer then you have to lift a sulky piece of ply out of the way first and that means movng the oars off it and they're tied down to prevent them being lost at sea.

No floorboard, no problem

And now it's bed time

CW
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

That little bastard Panic Pixie has a cousin and he's living in my garage.
He's left all my tools and brushes and paint pots all around the place, he's put grit in my white spirit, blunted all my chisels, and bent the blade on my band saw. He even keeps re-tuning the radio so that idiot Vine comes on when I should be listening to the blessed Martha.

Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

In reply to this post by Chris Waite
She looks great Chris - Tigger  is getting jealous now as Polly has caught my eye.

Very seaworthy I think.

-Paul
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

Eany, Meany, Mo and Miney – Her tiny tush has touched the briny:

 
 

No disaster, I always look that worried when I'm thinking.

Actually that 'briny' was questionably ‘fresh’ water in my trials tank, otherwise known as the Mill Road drainage ditch.  She met the bollards and passed the squeeze test and I also stood the mast in her for a photo opportunity, grey old day though, makes the hull look quite cheerful:

 

And what is the verdict?  Well she floated reasonably high un-ballasted and in that state is about as wriggly as a Laser….

Not quite like trying to ride a bumble bee

Then I opened the big red ballast valve and not a lot happened; so I opened the secondary valves to the flexible tanks, (give me time, I’ll get the hang of it) and she started to take on water.  Certainly not quickly, but over the next five or ten minutes she slowly settled and firmed up considerably.  Having pootled about getting a couple of chums to check her pitch and such, we pulled her bow out and opened the valves again.  She empties much quicker than she fills:



So I think the answer is that the ballast system will work and prove useful in action, but it will always take time to fill and will probably benefit from heeling her over under sail, to increase the water pressure flooding the lower, lee tank.  Yes, the other option would be to pump in as well, but it means a whole load of complicated plumbing and that’s more than I can be bothered with.  Not so much as a drop free in the bilges though

And long may it continue

CW
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

What, and not a tipple in sight.
We'll save that for the grand naming day.

Congratulations Wee Polly is looking good.
Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Jolly good Chris - the ballast system played ball.

5 or 10 minutes is not long - at Cobnor you would barely be out in the main channel in that time. Beach her on a falling tide and let the tide do the emptying while you enjoy a beer.

Was she as stable as Rosie Mae when ballasted?

-Paul
Anders Anders
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

She looks very nice. I´m looking forward to see next chapters.
tony waller tony waller
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RE: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

In reply to this post by Chris Waite

Many congratulations, Chris, she’s looking good. Tony

Randonneur Randonneur
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

In reply to this post by Chris Waite

Actually that 'briny' was questionably ‘fresh’ water in my trials tank, otherwise known as the Mill Road drainage ditch. 

Well done Chris, she looks good.
Surprised there's any water in those drainage ditches, I mean, we're in the middle of the worst drought since before man invented the pluviometer. I suppose normally you could have sailed for miles over those fields...

Pete

alopenboat alopenboat
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

On 4 May 2012 at 4:55, Randonneur [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> >
> >
> > Actually that 'briny' was questionably `fresh´ water in my
> > trials tank, otherwise known as the Mill Road drainage ditch.
> >
>
> Well done Chris, she looks good.
> Surprised there's any water in those drainage ditches, I mean, we're
> in the middle of the worst drought since before man invented the
> pluviometer. I suppose normally you could have sailed for miles over
> those fields...

When I first moved to Somerset, on an explore round the area, I came
across a notice on a gate into a field of grazing cows. It said
something to the effect that "The sailing of boats on this field is
prohibited". A very unreasonable attitude, I thought.

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>

Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

In reply to this post by Port-Na-Storm
It's been a couple of weeks since I last put pinky to pad and I really don't think I have anything worth photographing to show you.  Are there any suggestions for a 'remover' that will get the Devil out of the detail?  Proper preparation is Pants

Going back through the last responses - Graham, "Not a tipple in sight" you say?  This is where I found one of 'my assistants' had put the glass:



Paulie - I agree, I don't think the somewhat lacklustre ballast filling is a particular problem.  It was a grim day, threatening to rain and there was still some naked wood on the build which I did not want to get wet, so we did not hang around.

Even unfinished and empty, so very light, she was not ghastly unstable and it seems the dory flare did stiffen her up as the heeling angle advanced.  This was considerably improved as the tanks filled, though they did not fully flood before I had proved the point to myself and called a halt.  Only proper use will really indicate the breed of monster I have created.

As for the drainage channel - it always seems to have a reasonable depth of water, rather over a foot, though I have never taken the time to work out quite why.  The river is close by and the system runs into it at lower states of the tide through a sluice with a big hatch valve to stop the tide coming back in.  I have to say that in a good wet winter the valley above the Downs can appear to be one vast lake - 'rough boating' on this water could really suit the duck punts.

Come to think of it, I do have one new item - a big blue bag with a dark tan sail in it, acquired yesterday from the great Gerry at Arun Sails in Bosham.  No sticks to put it on yet, though there are several suitable lengths in my Olde Stick Store

Hopefully this week and next will see some real advances on all this background preparation

Pigsmight
 
Insomnius Maximus

Jeremy Jeremy
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

Some of us are still bonding bits of stuff together to make something vaguely boat-like before Beale, whilst others seem to be adding luxuries like cup holders..........................
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Evolving 'Polly Wee'

Mind if I fumble with your tantals for a moment?

 

That's about as tanatalizing as it gets around here for the time being....

Details after the coming week's entertainment

Lechraid anyone?

Ancient and Marinated
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