Help with stitch and glue please.

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Figital Figital
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Help with stitch and glue please.

Hi

In my previous posts I discussed various light rowing craft designs. The Angus Oxford Wherry (previously Salamander) seemed to fit my bill, and the plans have been available now for a few months. (They have been very helpful in answering my initial questions too. I hope that I may yet build this boat as its lines are appealing and it looks highly efficient yet has practical applications too.

HOWEVER - I decided that I might be biting off too much if i went straight into this build, and hence have started a Stitch and Glue Canadian canoe, from plans supplied by UK - Epoxy Resins:
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/freeplans.htm

I have cut and stitched the panels from 4mm Marine ply



I'm happy with the lines - a few minor tweeks needed to get good fit.



I think I am close to being ready to start with the epoxy, and have a few questions - I hope someone with experience can give me some pointers:

I'd like to remove the wires - it somehow seems slack to leave them in.

The angle between panels is very small in most places - I cannot see how I can get an internal fillet deep enough without it being very wide - and then it will be difficult to keep straight.

I have seen video of panels 'tacked' in the outside joints before removing the stitches - however this is only 4mm ply and there is precious little gap in most places to allow a filler in the join.

Can anyone advise on how to tack the shell together while I remove the copper?

Thanks.

Geoff

momist momist
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Re: Help with stitch and glue please.

Hi, I'm amazed that no-one has jumped in here yet.

My experience (2 boats) is a long time ago now, but here's my view:

1.  There will almost never be a gap too narrow to get a bit of epoxy/fibre glue into.  (You are using micro-fibres?) The epoxy tends to soak out of the fibre mix into the end grain of the ply, so don't make it too stiff in the first place.  Consistency of toothpaste is good.

2. Good quality epoxy is far stronger than you think, once cured, and short lengths between the wires will hold the ply together while you take the wires out, as long as you don't over-strain the joints.  Don't attempt to turn the hull in that state.

3.  Once the wires are out, you can fill in the gaps and then get some glass tape over the outside of the seams and let that go off before turning the hull over, it will then be more than strong enough.

4.  Fillets inside are to spread the strain and neaten the appearance, and to avoid sharp bends in the glass tape which can cause gaps underneath.  They don't need to be thick at all.  Others have used masking tape to get straight edges, I didn't bother because I was taping over the fillets anyway.

Good luck with the build, and it does look very well done so far!

Ian
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Help with stitch and glue please.

In reply to this post by Figital
I only started using stich and tape a few years ago as well Geoff

And I also wondered about this one; eventually I used some very thin glass finishing mat cut into squares and actually stuck them across the shallow joins diamond-fashion on the inside of the hull, (so that the join was covered by a diagonal of the square).  The next time, I just used squares of the seam tape itself and I'm not sure they're all even diagonal; the thicker tape shows a little more on the finished product.  As already mentioned, so long as you don't stress the joint until it is fully taped, this seem to work well:



Chris W
Figital Figital
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Re: Help with stitch and glue please.

Thanks to you both for your replies.

Do I understand that the fillet line is not clearly visible through the tape? You said that straightness didn't matter too much as it is 'covered'. The colour of the  filler on my scarf joints is distinctly darker - but maybe once epoxied it will blend in...?

Also to Chris:

Are you saying that standard tape will do - i.e. it will not be too thick and show as bumps along the seam? Did you fillet after you had removed the ties, or just tape straight on top of the temporary tape patches?

I notice your stitches are VERY much closer than mine. I believe I need a few more at bow and stern, but in general they are around 300mm apart. Is this because a) my curvature is less steep than yours appears to be at the bow/stern and b) my ply is only 4mm - or do you think I should go for more ties before tacking?

Thanks again

Geoff
momist momist
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Re: Help with stitch and glue please.

It sounds like you are going for a clear (varnish?) finish.  I painted both of mine, and so I can't help with the colour problem.  I will say that the colour of the wood will darken over time, and of course the varnish will change it's colour anyway (unless it's mahogany which will bleach out to pine colour in the sun), and that of the epoxy is likely to go more opaque as it ages, and it also degrades and loses strength with ultraviolet exposure.

The tape I used, modern ones may be different, had a distinct ridge along the selvage where the fibres are bent around to go back across.  (For some reason, this was more prominent at one edge than the other). This can be sanded out prior to finishing, but this is very hard work to do, and there is a danger of damaging the top layer of ply which is not a good idea with 4mm ply.  The removal of the selvage after applying the epoxy will not affect the strength of the joint one iota, and it might possibly be done with a bladed tool in that period when the epoxy has started to set but is still easy to cut. If so, it will dull the blade quickly on the glass. I left mine on where it didn't offend the eye, and sanded it off elsewhere.  It has gradually got removed over the years with refinishing work to the paint job.

Remember, all of life is a compromise, but for a fine finish perseverance is necessary.  

Figital Figital
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Re: Help with stitch and glue please.

Thanks. I haven't decided on a clear finish yet - it depends on the quality of the job and whether it stands up to scrutiny!

I think the tape I have has not got a thick edge - I recall earlier cloth having such an edge.

I think I'll go for the sticking plaster method - I think a narrow (half width?) tape - should be hidden by the application of the full width later.

Hope to get started this weekend while the temperature is still reasonable.

Cheers
Geoff
Figital Figital
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I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

In reply to this post by Figital
I'm sorry to say that my drive to finish this has gone, and I can see it remaining in its current state for the foreseeable future.

I have tacked the seams internally with short strips of glass and resin, and removed all the copper.

It seems fairly stable and is fit to be moved.

Is there anyone out there who would care to take this on as a project.

Nearly all that is needed is here.Overview

The resin, tape and glass cloth are from the original kit, along with microfibers and some brushes.

Plans and some timber for gunwhales (may not be ideal)

Construction is from genuine Marine Ply from reputable dealer.

Contact me to discuss the project if you are interested. May be able to deliver in Bristol, Swindon, Weston, Gloucs area.

Glass Kit
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi,
I may be able to have a go if no one else is interested, and Bristol is just down the M4 for me.
Is this offered on a free to a good home basis, or were you looking to recover costs?
Steve
Figital Figital
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Well - the resin and glass has general use and is sufficient for the task.

I had hoped for contribution to that maybe.

Ply and 'work so far' is of course gratis.

Let me know what you think - or maybe "swapsies" if you need a clearout .

figital at blue y0nder,co,uk

replace numerics, spaces and commas etc.
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi,
Sounds interesting, I have yacht paint, tools and bits of various boats lying around here, anything in particular you are after? Now I just need to get the garage roof fixed so that I have somewhere to work.
Steve
Figital Figital
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi

Sorry for the delay in replying - I've been away fro a while.

If you are still interested maybe you could email or call me

figital at bluey0n der  dot co dot uk

replace all spaces and numeric etc

or call on
oh seven nine six nine 546919

Thanks
Geoff
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi Guys,
This one has moved to middx now!

Looks a bit big for a canoe for one but apparently you can also row?

I also reckon it should have a transom to mount a small rudder on but
1st some wood to get the shape right.

Onwards and upwards tomorrow.
Steve
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Well Done Steve.
It does look a bit beamy for a canoe but why row when you can face forward and watch the birdies?
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi,
Thinking about keeping my options open on the propulsion front and having both rowing and paddling positions. The one on the photo looks like it has a moveable seat, though not very comfortable.
There might be a small sail coming as well, anyone go plans for a small drop in or furl-able rig?
Steve
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi,
Making good progress despite the rain!
Collision bulkhead added up front:

Main bulkheads and decks on the way:

Sue thinks I should be building and ark!
Steve
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi,
All bulkheads in now:



The tanks will be for stowage as well so the deck section here will have a locker lid added:



It's still raining!
Steve
Figital Figital
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Good to see that you've made progress on the state I left it in - hope it was basically sound.

The transom seems to be a neat idea - I had originally thought of a rower (like the snipefish or wherry).

Good luck with the build - it it aint rain it'll be frost now!
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi,
Glad you approve, the weather is proving a pain so I am mostly making bits for it.
Decks, hatches and seats are all on the way. Lots of recycling too, the seat frames
are made from very old Mirror dinghy spars.
Steve
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

In reply to this post by LASER41420
Going back a bit Steve

I have just noticed your request for a small drop-in, furlable rig.  I tried very hard to persuade Graham to use another Mad-Chris-Waite design for the mizzen on 'Kaytie Beardie', which he cannot easily reach without great peril to life and sandwiches, but he was not ready for such outrageous notions.  Here is my mock up, the "Leg O' Mizzen", though you can stick it up front, if you so desire.  It needs a sheet, but is otherwise designed so that it furls on one continuous loop which is a brailing line on one end and a boom out-hauler on the other.  Pull out - pull in; pull out - pull in....

The first picture is his current much simpler method; mine is intended to leave you with something more like a folded umbrella and less like a canvas cornet -  

 
 

Or as we found on this last Lech-raid,

You could use an umbrella

Chris W.
LASER41420 LASER41420
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Re: I have to admit - I won't finish this one - anyone for a project?

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the design suggestion, I was thinking something a bit more like a roller blind though.
Hmmm maybe just use an actual roller blind?
Back to freegle.
Steve
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