I need a new boat

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David Bewick David Bewick
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I need a new boat

Folks, I need to pick your brains.  To cut a long story short, we are now living in Newton Ferrers in a property that we redeveloped.  This has quite a lot going for it - not least that the garage/boathouse door is 15 m from the top of the slipway!  However, my beloved 14' Aber only just fits in the aforementioned space with the trolley handle hard against the door and with no room to swing anything, let alone a cat.  So, I am thinking about a new boat in the 12' region.  The new boat will probably be rowed more than it is sailed.  My shortlist includes: Morbic 12 (I love Vivier's boats but would quite like a change with this one), Acorn 12 skiff (great rowing boat but a bit flighty?) and Guilletmot (great all-rounder, perhaps not the best to row?).  I have never built an Oughtred design,but I do quite fancy one of his, this time.  I know there are probably examples of all these in the HBBR fleet and I would be grateful for any any thoughts you might have to help me with my choice.

Meanwhile, I will continue to cogitate about my next "big" boat project, but that is another story, altogether (and probably a lot more of a challenge, as I can't even make up my mind between an open day boat and something with a lid!).

Many thanks and best regards,

David.
Timmo Timmo
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Re: I need a new boat

Hi Dave

What hardships... 15m to the slipway!

I can speak for the Acorn Skiff... Mine, slightly stretched to 13', is an absolute witch under oars. Great solo. WIth a helmsperson, because there's not a lot of buoyancy in the winglass stern, you either have to ballast the bow or row from the bow position. Nice having someone looking where you're going and steering though Two oarspersons and a cox works very well, specially if you want speed and there's still plenty of room for the cooler and picnic basket.. More than three adults and it's getting crowded. 

Under sail (gunter rig single mainsail) she goes very well on any angle of reach. Points reasonably but loses speed fast as you get nearer the wind. Downwind you do notice she's quite tender. Main problem with sailing is where to sit. Can't sit in the sternsheets (obstructs the tiller and fore/aft balance wrong) and the next place to sit is the centre thwart. Works OK but you end up sitting with your legs to the stern while you're half turned to face forward. 

She is a rowing boat with a sail. A long straight keel is great until you come to tack. She won't spin like a flat sterned dinghy will. You need to sail her through the tack. If you're going upwind in a channel that requires frequent tacks... forget it, get the oars out.

Not a lot of primary stability, tons of secondary. I've watched someone almost sail her under (lee rail under water and sinking) without actually capsizing. So she feels twitchy when you're aboard and moving around, but stops heeling quite solidly when 20-25° or so off vertical.

At least being sat on the centre thwart it's easy to slide to the upwind side when the wind's up and back to the centre again when it drops. It's not a boat where you can plonk yourself on an upwind side bench (there aren't any) and sit there regardless of wind strength. No wind, you sit central.

While she's taken some choppy conditions (West coast of Scotland and West coast of France) I personally don't see her as a sea boat. The fine bow means she could slice into big waves rather than riding over them. Good for estuaries, lakes and rivers.

We've really enjoyed ours. Though she's not been out for over a year so we were starting to think we should part with her so she could go to a home where she'll be used more.

If rowing is the main way she'll be used then you should really consider an Acorn. If you want to try ours out sometime we'll have to work on creating an opportunity (though there are probably ones nearer you that will be easier tio get to!)

Tim.


On 27 Apr 2016, at 08:23, David Bewick [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Folks, I need to pick your brains.  To cut a long story short, we are now living in Newton Ferrers in a property that we redeveloped.  This has quite a lot going for it - not least that the garage/boathouse door is 15 m from the top of the slipway!  However, my beloved 14' Aber only just fits in the aforementioned space with the trolley handle hard against the door and with no room to swing anything, let alone a cat.  So, I am thinking about a new boat in the 12' region.  The new boat will probably be rowed more than it is sailed.  My shortlist includes: Morbic 12 (I love Vivier's boats but would quite like a change with this one), Acorn 12 skiff (great rowing boat but a bit flighty?) and Guilletmot (great all-rounder, perhaps not the best to row?).  I have never built an Oughtred design,but I do quite fancy one of his, this time.  I know there are probably examples of all these in the HBBR fleet and I would be grateful for any any thoughts you might have to help me with my choice.

Meanwhile, I will continue to cogitate about my next "big" boat project, but that is another story, altogether (and probably a lot more of a challenge, as I can't even make up my mind between an open day boat and something with a lid!).

Many thanks and best regards,

David.


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Chris Partridge Chris Partridge
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Re: I need a new boat

"We've really enjoyed ours. Though she's not been out for over a year so we were starting to think we should part with her so she could go to a home where she'll be used more."

AAAARRGGGHH...MUST RESIST....
Chris Partridge Chris Partridge
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Re: I need a new boat

In reply to this post by David Bewick
I think Timmo has very comprehensively gone through the disadvantages of trying to combine sail and oar. My Cygnus 15 conversion has many of the same 'features' - loses speed when pointing high, having a steerer while you row brings the bow right up and the steerer can't move the tiller when seated in the stern.
However, with just me aboard she is fine - the tiller is reachable from the 'sailing' thwart in the middle of the boat which can be removed when rowing from the forward position. With a long straight keel she is good to row but goes about eventually (and reliably now I have got the knack).
So I suspect row/sailing only really works if you are single handing. If you will usually have crew, pick one or t'other. Having a cox makes rowing much more relaxing especially in water with lots of shallows.
David Bewick David Bewick
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Re: I need a new boat

Tim,

Many thanks for your insights on The Acorn skiff.  That very much reinforces what I had already deduced about this design.  I have a gut feeling that compromises on rowing performance might be easier to live with (unless you are a hot-shot rower, who cares about the extra half knot?) than compromises on the sailing front (if it doesn't point or tack easily, that is a real pain) but it is a hard call, at the end of the day.

By the way, how's the Ilur coming on?

Chris,

I know how hard it is to get genuine sail and oar ability in a boat.  My Aber actually does this very nicely and rows very well with one or two people aboard (and a dog that won't keep still) using two rowing positions.  She sails pretty well, too, with one to three people.  She is also OK with a stink-pot on the back but I have only inflicted that on her, once.  I am really looking for something that does something very similar to Aber, but in a slightly smaller package.

I guess if the perfect boat was easy to find, we would only ever build one boat in our lives, so what would we do with ourselves, then?

Best regards,

David.
Timmo Timmo
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Re: I need a new boat

In reply to this post by Chris Partridge
This Acorn skiff has a tiller for when sailing and a yoke with ropes for when rowing with a helmsman, means the helmserson can recline in the sternsheets (there's a backrest that removes for sailing) looking pretty under a parasol... this is de-rigueur for sunny days on the Thames in Oxford. A look Kate carries off better than I do.


On 28 Apr 2016, at 09:24, Chris Partridge [via UK HBBR Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think Timmo has very comprehensively gone through the disadvantages of trying to combine sail and oar. My Cygnus 15 conversion has many of the same 'features' - loses speed when pointing high, having a steerer while you row brings the bow right up and the steerer can't move the tiller when seated in the stern.
However, with just me aboard she is fine - the tiller is reachable from the 'sailing' thwart in the middle of the boat which can be removed when rowing from the forward position. With a long straight keel she is good to row but goes about eventually (and reliably now I have got the knack).
So I suspect row/sailing only really works if you are single handing. If you will usually have crew, pick one or t'other. Having a cox makes rowing much more relaxing especially in water with lots of shallows.


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Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: I need a new boat

In reply to this post by David Bewick
It must be hell for you David.
My heart is bleeding.............

I think what you really need is a boat stacking and retrieval system so that you can have a number of boats, each for a specific purpose.

Have fun choosing.
Graham
pete@watercraft-magazine.com pete@watercraft-magazine.com
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Re: I need a new boat

In reply to this post by David Bewick
David

A few other designs you might consider, in no particular order...

Paul Fisher: 10' & 12' Cobles

Andrew Wolstenholme: 11' Coot & 12'6" Mallard

Paul Gartside: 12'3" Riff, design 136 & 11' Plywood Yacht Tender, design 120 (More suitable than name might suggest)

Joel White: 12'10" Pooduck Skiff, plans from WB

Hope this helps

Pete G, Water Craft



Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: I need a new boat

A rowing, sailing twelve footer?

You could always go for a Premise 12....

 

Keeps up with the Cygnus 15 (well maybe, almost nearly, a bit-ish - Mr Partridge?) under oar and points higher and goes faster than for instance a Mirror dinghy under sail.  Could be beamier than the original if you don't have bollards to contend with.  Or if you consider that you'd like a bit more of this parameter, or a bit less of that dimension - it's easy to include such fancies.

It's not exactly sophisticated in the way of a build, but that's the whole point of the design.  The Einstein bit comes into play again - why make something complicated if it can be simplified?

Which reminds me, I still owe editor Pete an article

I just have the last half of a house to go Pete

And then I can return to

My literary reveries

In peace

CW

David Bewick David Bewick
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Re: I need a new boat

Thanks, guys, for the suggestions of others to consider.

Ah, yes, the Premise 12.  I was only thinking to myself the other day, Chris, that at least I don't have the bollard problem to contend with!

David.
John P John P
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Re: I need a new boat

In reply to this post by David Bewick
David Bewick wrote
Folks, I need to pick your brains.  To cut a long story short, we are now living in Newton Ferrers in a property that we redeveloped.  This has quite a lot going for it - not least that the garage/boathouse door is 15 m from the top of the slipway!  However, my beloved 14' Aber only just fits in the aforementioned space with the trolley handle hard against the door and with no room to swing anything, let alone a cat.
David - that is a surprise - it seems that you now live about 2 miles from us, albeit with an arm of the sea in between - maybe we can meet up to talk about boats and sailing. I think the last time we met was on the ferry out to Semaine du Golfe but we never saw you after that since you were allocated to a different fleet.  As for the 'need' for a new boat, your 14 foot boat will just fit in the garage, a 12 foot one will give you 2 foot space at one end, why would that be so important - I suspect a ruse to justify more boat building?!  
John
Julian Taylor Julian Taylor
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Re: I need a new boat

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I built my Morbic 12 over the winter of 2012/13 and decided on that design after chatting with you and several others at the previous Beale Park show.
My requirements were for a boat that could be sailed and launched single handed, our yacht club has a couple of ramps over the river wall, and also be built in my workshop.
You convinced me of the desirability of getting Alec Jordan to chop up the ply as the space I had available, around 22 x 12 in old money, didn't give a lot of room for this operation alongside setting up the moulds. Like you I also enjoy building stuff so was a little disappointed that Morbic turned out a perfect choice for me, no excuse to build another.

I'm just back from the Barton Turf meet having extended the weekend to sail off on my own for a few days. There are a few pics of my boat on that post and the link to the SOTP site. The boat is roomy for one to sleep in, sails well with the usual limitations of a traditional rig and most importantly looks great. I borrowed a few ideas from Adrian Donovan's boat, I've never seen the boat or met him though he does live around here somewhere. These include seat slats and floorboards, essential for cruising in, a collar round the mast on the foredeck and a whole bundle of other little things that we change as we go along.

The boat is stable, rows well and I'm growing more pleased with her as I learn more how to handle her better.
The Guillemot was also on my list but I reckon the Morbic is a better boat for me.

Enjoy your cogitations.

Julian  
David Bewick David Bewick
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Julian,

Yes, I remember our chat.  I have seen a few pics of your boat and she looks really nice.  I saw the one that Adrian Donovan built (I think it was at the Southampton boat show) and it was a real gem.  I know he made a few modifications to the design, some of which have been incorporated into the latest plans, but I had not realised that he had added floor boards - as you say, highly desirable for cruising.

Since my first post, I think each of the designs I mentioned has been on the top of my shortlist for a while.  Perhaps I will see something at Beale next w/e that will help me to make my mind up!

David.
Julian Taylor Julian Taylor
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David

It may just be my assumption about the floorboards but I do remember studying the seat slats to get some idea of dimensions. I epoxied a set of floors with limber holes to set the floorboards on fastened with ash turnbuckles. One stern half I remove and raise to thwart level to sleep on with the platform lengthened by short planks from the centreboard case to the thwart runners. Very comfy and quick to rig.

I know Francois wanted to keep the weight of Morbic to a minimum but a decent trolley with a jockey wheel makes the addition insignificant in terms of shifting the boat but beneficial in stability for this lightweight sailor.

So don't worry about that 15m gap between shed and slip but I would have thought you might have searched a little longer to find somewhere nearer the water?. Jealous me? well no really as my short bike ride down to the Deben Yacht club sees me on the water within 20min of leaving the house.

Enjoy Beale Park, I wont make it this year.

Julian
David Bewick David Bewick
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OK folks, I thought I should tell you that I have made a decision.  On my last rowing trip out in my Aber, I ended up with four adults and a large hairy dog in the boat.  This seemed like a thoroughly nice thing to be able to do.  I was already edging towards a Guillemot as a result and seeing the beautiful example in the car park at Beale Park tipped the balance and the plans have now been bought!  I am now enjoying what is probably the best part of the whole boat building process - pouring over the plans and dreaming but not getting clagged up with epoxy.

I'll keep you posted.

Best regards,

David.
Chris Partridge Chris Partridge
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What are you pouring over the plans, David? Mark my words, it will end in tears...
Chris Partridge Chris Partridge
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Sorry about that...I've spent too much of my life proofreading...
David Bewick David Bewick
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Re: I need a new boat

In reply to this post by Chris Partridge
Beer!
David Bewick David Bewick
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Dear All,

I am please to be able to tell you that the dreaming phase is now over (for a while, at least) and I have started to damage wood, again.  My plan is to make as many "bits and pieces" as I can over the winter so I can put them all together fairly quickly in the spring.  I have got a large pile of Utile and marine ply in the workshop and, so far, I have made up the the apron (inner stem), laminated the stem over it and glued up the boards for the transom.  All with PU glue , so none of the loathsome epoxy in sight, so far!

I have also exchanged e-mails with IO and agreed what I think is a much more sensible arrangement for the thwarts on my boat.  The standard design is all wrong for a single rower, in my book, so the main thwart will be much closer to the centre of buoyancy.  This probably means I will do away with the forward thwart altogether but bring the mast partner back a bit (without changing the mast position) for the forward rowing position.  That way, I should be able to balance the boat with anything between 1 and 4 people, if I can get then to all sit in the right places .  I'm still not sure where the dog is going to go, though!

Best regards for the silly season.

David.
mikekillay mikekillay
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Re: I need a new boat

David,
Is this boat going to be ready for Beale Park?
Mike Stevens
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