Sustainable development - Finnish birch plywood

[BrianP]

Francois Viver's has been writing about using sustainable plywood.

" Sustainable developement
The boatbuilder and I have decided that the first Pen-Hir will be built respecting sustainable development, as much as possible, and we have launched a research and development program with several laboratories. We chose to exclude all tropical woods and in particular okume or mahogany plywood. The boat is made of first class Finnish birch plywood which is extremely resistant and stiff. The only drawback is that birch, as okume, is not a durable wood. Therefore the hull and deck are epoxy sheathed and all edges properly protected. All main timber parts are made of oak, in particular the coachroof coamings. Pine is also used in the accommodations. The mast and spars are made of Douglas fir.
Of course, Pen-Hir may also be built with common marine plywood and red wood as timber."

Now it so happens that my son Edward who is building a 12' dinghy, bought a number of sheets of 6.5mm Finnish WBP Birch plywood from our local supplier Edens. He bought it to make moulds and patterns. It's very low cost at £20 per sheet. It is very high quality, not a single void has been found and the veneers are an even size. Having read more about Birch ply, it seems that is is as rot resistant as ocume, as strong as mahogany, and as heavy as mahogany. It is odd that we accept ocume's resistance to weathering as ok but consider birch to be too prone to water damage.

If Francois Vivier can choose Birch for Pen-Hir, a large yacht which will be in the water far more than a dry sailed dinghy, it would seem a good thing to build a dinghy in this material. It's just a worry in case theory does not match in practice, or that after all that work the boat would be worthless because it's not in ocume.

What do people think? They do build aeroplanes with this stuff after all.

Brian

[Timmo]

Birch ply is versatile stuff and I've used similar quality material in the past. The two very personal 'buts' for me are:

1. I don't like sheathing everything in glass/epoxy. I have done it, and will do it again. But I'd rather not. Hence my general preference for lapstrake construction using guaranteed durable ply.

2. Birch ply doesn't have the figure and colour a hardwood ply can have so you're likely to paint rather than varnish and, having built in wood, I do like some of it to show through.

As I said, very personal issues, neither based on environmental considerations.

Would be interesting to compare the environmental impact of birch ply/glass/epoxy/two pot poly combination with lapstrajke hardwood ply (from sustainable sources)/Varnol. I would be influenced by some sound analysis.

Tim.

From: "BrianP [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>

Subject: Sustainable development - Finnish birch plywood

Francois Viver's has been writing about using sustainable plywood.

" Sustainable developement

[tony waller]

I used birch ply for the transom and a few other bits and pieces in a dinghy. It seemed OK but subject to mould when the varnish wears off. Perhaps a pre-treatment with a wood preservative would help that if applied before any surface treatment. Don't know about longevity but after three years of total neglect, it seemed OK. It sounds naughty, but could one use a wood stain? Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Timmo [via UK HBBR Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 20 February 2011 13:07
To: tony waller
Subject: Re: Sustainable development - Finnish birch plywood

Birch ply is versatile stuff and I've used similar quality material in the past. The two very personal 'buts' for me are:

1. I don't like sheathing everything in glass/epoxy. I have done it, and will do it again. But I'd rather not. Hence my general preference for lapstrake construction using guaranteed durable ply.

2. Birch ply doesn't have the figure and colour a hardwood ply can have so you're likely to paint rather than varnish and, having built in wood, I do like some of it to show through.

As I said, very personal issues, neither based on environmental considerations.

Would be interesting to compare the environmental impact of birch ply/glass/epoxy/two pot poly combination with lapstrajke hardwood ply (from sustainable sources)/Varnol. I would be influenced by some sound analysis.

Tim.

From: "BrianP [via UK HBBR Forum]" <[hidden email]>

Subject: Sustainable development - Finnish birch plywood

Francois Viver's has been writing about using sustainable plywood.

" Sustainable developement

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[BrianP]

The results with multi coat saturation wet on wet with breathable oil/varnish on hardwoods seems to be outstanding. Has anyone used this system on ocume which has the same durability as birch?

It would be very interesting to try this technique on birch?

Brian

[adminHBBR]

Sustainable?  Here we go...

Illegal and licensed logging is causing a dramatic reduction of primary rain forest in Asia and South America. It also destroys the natural habitat for many species of animals as well as the livelihood of a billion of the worlds poorest people. Even if replanted the secondary forest takes hundreds of years to return to the rich variety of wildlife supported by primary rain forest.
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/forests/illegal_logging.htm

The only way to completely avoid those problems is to use wood from Northern Europe like Oak, Pine, Birch etc. that is carefully managed. North America/Canada has strict logging quotas also.

Hence Birch ply from Northern Europe is probably the most sustainable ply you can buy.

-Paul

[Jeremy]

Durability isn't that big a deal, when you think of the sort of use a small boat gets.  I've used birch ply a lot in building aircraft and, provided it's kept dry, it is fantastic stuff.  It's light, strong and usually very tight grained and free from voids.  One nice aspect is that it always seems to bend evenly, even when the bend radius is pretty tight.

I'd not hesitate to make a small boat, that was stored out of the water, from birch.  I'm sure pretty much any reputable oil or varnish would offer adequate protection for the short time that small boats are kept in the water.  The only proviso would be that I think a boat made from birch would need to be stored like a wooden aeroplane and kept under cover in a well-ventilated place, when not in use.

Jeremy

[Anders]

Just a few issues.

1) I dont like when plywood is devided into two categories Rot resistant and not rot resistant. There can be a big difference between two species like Okume and poplar which will both fit in the last one. Poplar will rot a lot faster than okume. So Brian, where did you read about the properties of birch? I´m Scandinavian and we normally dont consider birch to be very rot resistant.

2) Be aware that a lot of the "Finnish" birch plywood comes from eastern european countrys. I´m not at all sure that they have the same environmental policy as the nordic countrys. I´m pretty sure they dont. So make sure that your Finnish plywood actually comes from Finland. Because if not you are cheating yourself and your environmental ideals.

[simplesimon]

We use oils a lot on the dinghies and powerboats at the Barton Centre. It's fine on solid wood, will last a year, but not good on plywood. My guess is that the oils soaks in only as far as the first glue layer so only the outer veneer gets treated. Since that is usually only about 1mm thick the oil is easily lost.

Simon

[Timmo]

A very interesting thought Simon. I've used oil (B&Q's best decking oil!) on the ply planking of one canoe. Works well but the canoe is not used as much nor exposed to weather as much as your boats will be. Even then an annual top up is necessary, though very easy.

Was planning on Varnol as the main finish for the next build. I'm anticipating it being more robust than other oils (since it seems to be a cross between oil and varnish) but reassurance would be welcome. I'm trying to avoid varnish, despite trying many times I have yet to achieve a finish I'm happy with. I'm too impatient and think I'm too insensitive to the viscosity of varnish/thinners mix to get it right.

Tim.

From: "simplesimon [via UK HBBR Forum]"

My guess is that the oils soaks in only as far as the first glue layer so only the outer veneer gets treated. Since that is usually only about 1mm thick the oil is easily lost. 

[BrianP]

Hi Anders, the source is Latvia. This advanced technical panels site indicates it is happy with Finnish, Polish or Latvian supply.  

 http://www.advancedtechnicalpanels.co.uk/InformationA.136.html

Will hook out references to ocume / birch.

[Anders]

Thanks Brian.

I´m glad that the Baltic countryes are waking up and following the environmental idea of the nordic countrys.
The thinnest I´ve seen is 6,5mm. Good for many things but a little heavy for something you want to cartop. Any 4 or 5mm birch ply out there?

Yes, please, I would like to read the Okume/birch reference. I´m a woodeworker, so wood interests me. Birch is a very nice solid wood for furniture. Its strong and easy to work. And in my opinion very pretty as well. You can even get flamed birch veneer.

[Jeremy]

I have routinely used 0.8mm and 1.5mm GL1 Finnish birch ply and know that it's also readily available in 2mm and 4mm, as these are the sort of thickness's used in aircraft.  I can't recall ever having used anything thicker than this, and could point you in the direction of a couple of suppliers of GL1 if you're pocket is up to it!

Jeremy  

[Port-Na-Storm]

Away back in Water Craft No 32, March/April 2002 there was an article on a very nice Finnish trailer sailor called Vanessa 20 which I've always hankered after.  She was designed to be built, clinker-ply from Finnish Birch Ply, and also had electric auxiliary power.

The next article also written by Mike Hanyi was on the production of Birch Ply, which as well as being from sustainable sources, was considered to be durable enough as long as it was painted or epoxy coated, not necessarily sheathed.  Mike also says that as FBP is heavier and denser than some marine plys it can be used thinner than usual.

I also have a funny notion the Illustrious Editor is building his Chebacco from Birch Ply? Maybe he will enlighten us?

On the subject of Oils, I have also used B&Q Decking oil, and can confirm how easy it is to use, and what a superb finish it gives,  but while slapping a few more coats on with an oily rag the other day I actually read all the dire warnings on the back of the can!  
It contains;  Benzothriazol, Sebacate, Cobalt 2, Ethylhexanorate, Eythl, Methyl, Ketoxime, may produce allergic reaction.  
I thought maybe I should wear some protection. I can now report that it melts surgical gloves.

cheers Graham.

[Anders]

Jeremy

I know about GL birch and I also know how much it costs, so I´ll leave it for small things like models etc.

I actualy found a distributor here in Spain of 4mm 3layer birch ply from latvia. So maybe. But they also have a very lightweight and high quality Calabó 5mm 5 layer construction grade plywood with absolutely no voids etc.

[ed]

Oddly enough, in the M/A issue of Water Craft mailed out yesterday (a day late; sorry!), Kathy Mansfield has an article on Francois Vivier's Pen-Hir built in FBP and I have an update on my Chebacco build. 

I based my decision to use FBP on various reports, inc Mike Hanyi's; its excellent environmental credentials and inevitably, its very attractive price... even from Robbins (please don't tell them I wrote that). On Robbins advice I went for the best quality Exterior grade (that word Exterior is encouraging; it's used for van bodies, apparently) and the 9mm I'm using for the clinker planking still cost about £27 a sheet. And no, that's not 'trade'. I was very pleasantly surprised by its quality: 5 equal veneers, no knots, no apparent voids; nice to cut, plane and bend. It's much too soon for me to give FBP a ringing long-term endorsement but I can certainly say: So far, so very good.

However, I would stress that we're now taking care to thoroughly seal every piece of FBP with epoxy before assembly; we skimped this when we started the build and the ply grew a black mould. Though many top-notch pro boatbuilders get terrific results from soaking a trad built wooden boat with a good wood oil like Varnol before overcoating with traditional oil-based varnish, my understanding is that this is as much about appearance as protection, especially if the technique is used on ply.

I would want to do some serious tests before relying solely on any oil, however reputable, to seal FBP adequately.

Hope this helps.

Pete

On 21 Feb 2011, at 22:07, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

Away back in Water Craft No 32, March/April 2002 there was an article on a very nice Finnish trailer sailor called Vanessa 20 which I've always hankered after.  She was designed to be built, clinker-ply from Finnish Birch Ply, and also had electric auxiliary power.

The next article also written by Mike Hanyi was on the production of Birch Ply, which as well as being from sustainable sources, was considered to be durable enough as long as it was painted or epoxy coated, not necessarily sheathed.  Mike also says that as FBP is heavier and denser than some marine plys it can be used thinner than usual.

I also have a funny notion the Illustrious Editor is building his Chebacco from Birch Ply? Maybe he will enlighten us?

On the subject of Oils, I have also used B&Q Decking oil, and can confirm how easy it is to use, and what a superb finish it gives,  but while slapping a few more coats on with an oily rag the other day I actually read all the dire warnings on the back of the can!  
It contains;  Benzothriazol, Sebacate, Cobalt 2, Ethylhexanorate, Eythl, Methyl, Ketoxime, may produce allergic reaction.  
I thought maybe I should wear some protection. I can now report that it melts surgical gloves.

cheers Graham.

[BrianP]

Ok, so lets say we epoxy coat the birch ply ( 3 coats) wet on wet. We the need to find the right paint to use.

I would like to use the toughest paint which I think is a two part paint. Now I have had terrible problems trying to achieve a finish with two pack paints - and so have friends.  One pal painted his yacht hull and it looked so appalling the next day it was unreal. However a day spent working hard with wet and dry and a polisher had it looking as good as a grp finish.

The problem is slumping as the paint goes off. It's also impossible to enjoy using it as one would a nice oil based paint where the skill of tipping off can be enjoyed. This two part stuff hates being brushed or rolled.

However, I did find a two part varnish which was fine to use. Applied with a roller and tipped off by putting a finger on the roller and drawing it across the surface lightly. Not after a super finish just a decent one. The varnish was from Epifanes. Has anyone had similar success with their two part paints?

So there's the challenge - a two part paint that's a pleasure to use!!!!!

Brian

[LASER41420]

Hi Brian,

we have had reasonable success with 2 pack international paints using rollers and foam brushes. You have to add thinners as well because it is pretty gloopy stuff. You need one person to roller and one to smooth out the bubbles.

We have used Jotun and Blakes 2 pack as well, choice is usually dictated by what is going cheap at boat jumbles. Very old international pack purchased for £1 worked fine, new pack off the shelf at £40 had sedimented pigment and made a real mess!

Steve

[adminHBBR]

Brian,

Jotun Penguard HB epoxy primer - its the dog's do-dahs and suitable for potable water tanks including metal. HB stands for high build, its thick and covers scratches and nicks in the wood. Being epoxy based it sticks extremely well to epoxied wood and glass fibre.

Then Jotun Topcoat polyurethane - gives a rock hard finish that resists UV.  Both are two pack, will dissolve foam rollers in 45 minutes but foam rollers are the best way to apply. There is a 30 minute window after mixing as the paint thickens quickly, so mixed batches of about 2 cupfuls.

When you get a chance look at MilliBee's hull painted with the above 5 years ago, it's as good as new in places (the places where I didn't collide or scrape along something )

cheers
Paul

[Chris Waite]

Brian,

I do agree that two part poyurethane is not the easiest stuff to use.  However to me, the amazing durability makes it worth the less than perfect finish that I usually end up with.  Here are some pointers, from my own experience:

1.  Use a good quality paint - I agree with Jotun and Epiphanes being best; though the only Jotun I could get in this country is designed for spraying and you need to be quick.  I have found International increasingly unreliable and I once won a twin-pack of something else and it was something else - just awful, a sea of bubbles and streaks.

2.  Use a small sponge roller as brushes cause marked streaking; beware the rollers start to disintegrate after half an hour to an hour or so.  This may be due to dissolving in the solvent, or the paint starting to set and pull them apart, or a bit of both.  Can you get small tightly fuzzy rollers?  I don't remember if I've tried them.

3.  The 'wet edge' thing is important and particularly with the Jotun really doesn't give you much time - the hotter the weather, the less you get of course.  Cool and dry is best, (dry in Britain??)

4.  Rolling tends to produce bubbles in the laid paint, though it aviods the streaking effect of a brush.  There is a period a few minutes after, during which it is necessary to roll the area again, very very lightly, which pops all these little bundles of joy and the surface settles down to something like grained leather.  This improves as it dries then hardens over the next few days, but is never actually beautiful.

5.  I used to roll on and have a brush in my third hand again to make the lightest bubble bursting strokes and this produced a better surface, but in my old age I seem to have lost the knack and the patience, so roll it is.

But never mind the finish, feel the strength!

Chris W

[Port-Na-Storm]

While I applaud the sentiments behind this thread I'm a tad concerned that by trying to avoid one evil, i.e. the use of un-sustainable tropical hardwoods, we are perpetrating another, i.e. the over use of carbon based epoxies, solvents etc.  
If by using ecologically sound birch we end up covering it in three coats of Epoxy then a good coat of two pack I'm not sure ( although I'm here to be convinced) that we have either saved the planet or saved any money. And if we've added a layer of glass into the mix, I'm not even convinced we've built a wooden boat.

Is there no more ecologically better way to protect birch than this? Maybe we just have to accept having to re-paint more often.

A thought, all cars nowadays are painted with water-based paints, it seems to stick like the proverbial, so why do dry sailed boats need to be painted in solvent based paints?

There are many boat builders who would swear that the most ecological way to build is to use sustainable solid timber, locally grown, and nail it all together with copper.  Sadly the quality of my woodworking demands the use of a material able to fill all known gaps.