Trailer Corner

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Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Trailer Corner

There was a bit of chat about Trailers this weekend at Lower Load, and a suggestion that we start a trailer corner. So if I've got the technology right here it is.

A question for the mechanically minded amongst you.
I've noticed that the tyres on my trailer are wearing down very rapidly. They are wearing in the middle on both wheels. There was some talk about worn wheel-bearings causing tyre damage. My bearings seem to be o.k. as far as I can tell. No play or excessive rumbling.

Or could it be over inflation? I now know that the boat and trailer combination weighs in at 220kg.

Cheers
Graham
Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Trailer Corner

Graham,

Maybe the toe-in/toe-out is wrong? One suspension unit could be misaligned so that the tyres are not parallel - that would cause excessive wear as they fight each other.

They would ideally have a slight toe-in at rest, at speed they tend to move back to be parallel.

cheers
Paul
Say NO to Brexit. Kick it into the long grass
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Trailer Corner

That's uncanny.
No sooner do we start a new subject but immediately go off on a tangent.

It was only on Sunday at Tewkesbury  I was demonstrating my toe-in technique after someone started on about Scottish Cross Country Dancing.


Anyway ignore this and tell me how to fix my trailer.

Cheers
Graham
Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Trailer Corner

I just happened to have my phone handy......you put one toe-in, one toe-out.....

Say NO to Brexit. Kick it into the long grass
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Trailer Corner

Yes well all this modern technology has a lot to answer for;

Anyway, the trailer in question is old and of dubious origins. It has a transverse leaf spring with stub axles bolted on. I doubt there is any adjustment other than that provided by a "Dundee Spanner" which usually comes with a wooden handle and a four pound lump of iron on the other end.

Graham

alopenboat alopenboat
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Re: Trailer Corner

In reply to this post by Port-Na-Storm

When I  built the trailer for Little Jim I fitted it with suspension
units
rated at 150% of the expected load, but what pressure to put in the
tyres?
I studied lots of conflicting information on the internet and came up
with
these 2 constants.

If the pressure is too high then the ride will be harsh and the boat
may
get damaged.

If the pressure is too low then the tyre wall will flex, get hot and
burst.

So I blew them up hard, drove for 10 miles and felt the tyre walls.
If they weren't hot I reduced the pressure and drove another 10
miles. This homed in on a tyre as soft as possible without damaging
the tyre.



On 25 Jul 2011 at 10:44, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> There was a bit of chat about Trailers this weekend at Lower Load,
and a
> suggestion that we start a trailer corner. So if I've got the
technology
> right here it is.
>
> A question for the mechanically minded amongst you.
> I've noticed that the tyres on my trailer are wearing down very
> rapidly. They are wearing in the middle on both wheels. There was
some
> talk about worn wheel-bearings causing tyre damage. My bearings
seem to
> be o.k. as far as I can tell. No play or excessive rumbling.
>
> Or could it be over inflation? I now know that the boat and trailer
> combination weighs in at 220kg.
>
> Cheers
> Graham
> --
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

philoxuk philoxuk
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Re: Trailer Corner

In reply to this post by Port-Na-Storm
As they're both wearing in the centre I reckon they must be over-inflated, although that doesn't mean there isn't any scrub if they're wearing really quickly. Can you feel or hear them scrubbing when you move it by hand on tarmac? Presumably you could ease the fasteners holding the stub axle carrier to the spring, apply your 'adjuster', & torque them back up again. You should be able to get an idea with a carefully applied tape measure & some scrap timber. I've got an old tracking gauge somewhere.....somewhere......

Cheers,

Phil.
Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Trailer Corner

Graham,

There is also a chance the leaf springs have been bent in the past, so compare left and right units looking for differences. A set square on each bearing might shows some difference.

Phil's suggestion is the classic way to check alignment - a length of timber with dowel screwed either end to compare the distance between the tyre walls front and back. Try it both loaded and unloaded as the springs might be twisting under load.

What pressure are the tyres and what is their maximum loading?

-Paul
Say NO to Brexit. Kick it into the long grass
Ratcatcherjohn Ratcatcherjohn
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RE: Trailer Corner

Graham,  
 
 May I respectfully suggest that your trailer may have left its best days way behind.  Lurking in the grass behind my shed is a slightly used trailer that carried TBA to Barton a couple of times with no probs. It was going onto Ebay when I get some free time, say next week or next month or next year, depends on the upcoming painting & decorating but you can have first shout.  Paul did not see its potential, but I saw him coming & sent him off with that well dodgy old Mirror trailer.  If anybody else is interested just shout louder than Graham.
 
John 

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 03:13:42 -0700
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Trailer Corner

Graham,

There is also a chance the leaf springs have been bent in the past, so compare left and right units looking for differences. A set square on each bearing might shows some difference.

Phil's suggestion is the classic way to check alignment - a length of timber with dowel screwed either end to compare the distance between the tyre walls front and back. Try it both loaded and unloaded as the springs might be twisting under load.

What pressure are the tyres and what is their maximum loading?

-Paul
"Boat building is a long and tedious business"  - Cee.Dubs

http://tales-of-illusion.blogspot.com
http://www.millibee.com



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Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Trailer Corner

In reply to this post by Paul (admin)
Right,
 I don't know about this wood and dowelling malarkey but measuring between the wheels at the thickest part of the tyre, front and rear shows there is 20mm of Toe-Out.  This on eight inch rims.

As Paul says I'd normally expect a bit of toe-in, is this amount of toe-out excessive?

The leaf spring is a single transverse unit with stub axles at both ends. It was too late to start hitting things with a lump hammer.

The tyres are rated at 265kg at 60psi.

I presume that's per tyre. My boat/trailer weighs 220kg in total so that's 110kg with pressures currently running at 40psi.

I think the trailer is running a bit harsh, so maybe dropping the pressures by 5 psi or so should help.  

If all else fails it might be worth taking the spring off and fitting new suspension units.  

As ever I await your helpful and even humourus comments.

Graham
Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Trailer Corner

This post was updated on .
Graham,

20mm toe-out is way too much I'm afraid and that is causing the excessive wear.

Remove the bolts on the frame, clean off the rust and ream the holes then see if you can get the wheels parallel by leavering the springs as you tighten the bolts - a few clamps might help to force the wheels parallel.

A long metal bar is useful for persuading the frame into a different shape and does less damage than a big hammer. A one meter length of square steel tube bolted to the wheel studs might do the trick along with a Spanish windlass.

Googling around a lot of people have trailer tyre wear due to excessive toe-out. Hitting a rock or deep pothole can bend the bearings backwards, hence the toe-out.

EDIT: If you are worried about the bearings remove them and drill holes for the stub axle in a long length of 50mm box section and bolt it to the stub mounting plate.
Also the local garage might have a hydraulic press for fixing bent car chassis.

Good luck!
Paul
Say NO to Brexit. Kick it into the long grass
alopenboat alopenboat
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Re: Trailer Corner

In reply to this post by Port-Na-Storm
Would it be possible to rotate the whole wheel/suspension assembly so
that you had 20mm Toe-In?

My previous post seems to have vanished into the void so I will
repeat it here. Apologies if it already came through without my
noticing.

When I  built the trailer for Little Jim I fitted it with suspension
units rated at 150% of the expected load, but what pressure to put in
the tyres? I studied lots of conflicting information on the internet
and came up with these 2 constants.

If the pressure is too high then the ride will be harsh and the boat
may get damaged.

If the pressure is too low then the tyre wall will flex, get hot and
burst.

So I blew them up hard, drove for 10 miles and felt the tyre walls.
If they weren't hot I reduced the pressure and drove another 10
miles. This homed in on a tyre as soft as possible without damaging
the tyre.



On 26 Jul 2011 at 13:41, Port-Na-Storm [via UK HBBR Forum] wrote:

>
>
> Right,
>  I don't know about this wood and dowelling malarkey but measuring
>  between
> the wheels at the thickest part of the tyre, front and rear shows
> there is 20mm of Toe-Out.  This on eight inch rims.
>
> As Paul says I'd normally expect a bit of toe-in, is this amount of
> toe-out excessive?
>
> The leaf spring is a single transverse unit with stub axles at both
> ends. It was too late to start hitting things with a lump hammer.
>
> The tyres are rated at 265kg at 60psi.
>
> I presume that's per tyre. My boat/trailer weighs 220kg in total so
> that's 110kg with pressures currently running at 40psi.
>
> I think the trailer is running a bit harsh, so maybe dropping the
> pressures by 5 psi or so should help.  
>
> If all else fails it might be worth taking the spring off and fitting
> new suspension units.  
>
> As ever I await your helpful and even humourus comments.
>
> Graham
>
>
> -----
> Port-Na-Storm
> http://port-na-storm.blogspot.com/
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> 07/25/11

--
Hoping for calm nights

Alastair Law,      
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>          

Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Trailer Corner

Mmm, Turn it round the other way,  an interesting thought.

Would 20mm toe-in reduce the amount of tyre wear as opposed to 20mm toe-out?

Graham
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: Trailer Corner

As an also ran

Turning the assembly round was my notion too.

While I'm writing; how come I keep getting quoted as saying:  "Boat building is a long and tedious business"

People will begin to believe I'm a grumpy old fart

Ancient & Marinated
Paul (admin) Paul (admin)
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Re: Trailer Corner

Chris Waite wrote
While I'm writing; how come I keep getting quoted as saying:  "Boat building is a long and tedious business"

Ancient & Marinated
It was a quote from your Tit Willow article on the new DCA website - a bit of leg pulling...all gone now, honest.

-Paul
Almost Ancient & Marinated
Say NO to Brexit. Kick it into the long grass
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Trailer Corner

In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Regular Readers will be excited to know that Phil Ox came round yesterday with his big spanner.

We disassembled the springs etc and turned the whole thing through 180 degrees. We then loosened off the bolts on the stub axles and did our best to to get rid of the now excessive toe-in. When we'd tightened everything up we remeasured. Guess what! Exactly 20mm toe -in.  We decided that was a bit too much so Phil, has taken the stubs away to ease the inboard holes a couple of mm so that, she is a bit less hen toed.

The Tyre Pressures will also be dropped to somewhere in the high twenties.

Stay Tuned!
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: Trailer Corner

Phil has returned the stub axles suitably reamed out and I have now re-assembled the bits and pieces.

Guess what? (exciting isn't it?)

We now have about 8mm toe-in. Which should be about right.

Thanks Phil, new tyres on order and road test to follow.

If you see me on the hard shoulder heading for Cobnor you'll know it all went wrong.

Graham
Bill Jones Bill Jones
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Re: Trailer Corner: Linnet trailer?

In reply to this post by Port-Na-Storm
I hope I've got the right thread - apologies if not.

I'd be grateful if Linnet owners can advise on how they transport their boat. Trailer or car top? if trailer, what size? The Linnet is just under 16 feet by the way.
My Linnet is now at the top coat painting stage, and I hope a launch date is not far off.

Thanks!

Bill Jones
Jeremy Jeremy
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Re: Trailer Corner: Linnet trailer?

Sorry Bill, I missed this post earlier.  I can't comment on the Linnet specifically, but can compare using a trailer to putting a boat on a roof rack.  Aero is about the same size as a Linnet, but less than half the weight, but I much prefer using a trailer to putting her on the roof.  

The issue for me is that using the trailer can be a single handed affair without too much trouble, whereas using the roof rack is far easier with two people, not because of the weight but because a 16ft long boat is a bit of a handful if there is a bit of a breeze (although admittedly Aero is more affected by this than a heavier boat would be).  

The sliding beam type roof rack systems look as though they might make loading and unloading easier, (I've not tried them) but they also add to the weight being carried on the car roof, which may well take it over the safe limit for some cars (my car has a 60kg roof load limit, for example).  If you've not seen these, then here is an example being used to lift a 17ft 6in, 72kg boat on to a car roof:



The down side of using a trailer is that you need to find somewhere secure to park it whilst you're out and about.  I've found that my very light trailer makes this a bit easier, as I can lift it into a tight space more readily.   I find that using a trailer with a small launching trolley is easier for me, having tried both methods of transportation, but I'm not pushed for storage space at home and can use the same trailer for two very different boats, making it earn its keep a little more.

Jeremy
Bill Jones Bill Jones
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Re: Trailer Corner: Linnet trailer?

Thank you very much Jeremy.
My instincts tell me car-topping is probably not the best way for a boat of this size - for the reasons you give.
And I imagine the clever device for loading which you illustrate is not cheap.
 
I have two road trailers - one 'little' one I used for my 13 ft Torch dinghy years ago (and probably only fit for local journeys) and the combi for my Cruz (14'3"). it would be good to try to use the bigger one - but if the Linnet is just under 16 ft the boat will not be in balance on the trolley - how much does this matter and if gear is loaded in the bow half of the Linnet to balance it is that sufficient for safe towing?
(I'm trying to avoid buying a third trailer! - partly cost, and partly because three trailers sounds like carelessness!)
 
Thanks again
 
Bill
Topper Cruz 'Arion' and soon-to-be Linnet (name tba)
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 21/08/2011 12:42:58 GMT Daylight Time, [hidden email] writes:
Sorry Bill, I missed this post earlier.  I can't comment on the Linnet specifically, but can compare using a trailer to putting a boat on a roof rack.  Aero is about the same size as a Linnet, but less than half the weight, but I much prefer using a trailer to putting her on the roof.  

The issue for me is that using the trailer can be a single handed affair without too much trouble, whereas using the roof rack is far easier with two people, not because of the weight but because a 16ft long boat is a bit of a handful if there is a bit of a breeze (although admittedly Aero is more affected by this than a heavier boat would be).  

The sliding beam type roof rack systems look as though they might make loading and unloading easier, (I've not tried them) but they also add to the weight being carried on the car roof, which may well take it over the safe limit for some cars (my car has a 60kg roof load limit, for example).  If you've not seen these, then here is an example being used to lift a 17ft 6in, 72kg boat on to a car roof:



The down side of using a trailer is that you need to find somewhere secure to park it whilst you're out and about.  I've found that my very light trailer makes this a bit easier, as I can lift it into a tight space more readily.   I find that using a trailer with a small launching trolley is easier for me, having tried both methods of transportation, but I'm not pushed for storage space at home and can use the same trailer for two very different boats, making it earn its keep a little more.

Jeremy



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