hopefully a hbb in the near future

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cello cello
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hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hello boatbuilders,

looking around for "my best boat" I started to plan my own build boat. It will be a sailable open canoe, usefull for paddeling and sailing. Looking around in the www I found your webside and your forum an I decidet to become a member of your comunity.

I have to apologize my poor English, but I#m from Germany and my school-learning-English-time is far away.

Greetings
cello
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Guten tag, Herr Cello!

Welcome to the HBBR; you have already done more than enough to qualify - only the most discerning can even find the site.  Also your English far out performs my German - I think I was awarded 9 points out of 100 for my 'O' level exam.

Elsewhere I have heard that in connection with your intention to build a sailing canoe, you admire 'Katie Beardie'.  Although the basic hull design is mine, you have contacted the right person as Graham actually built her, completing from the hull up to his own ideals....

And thanks to him, she has turned out very well

I still have to claim my right to a go as the designer-in-part, but as she made it down the Thames river at the beginning of the month,

I have high hopes

Chris Waite (CeeDubs)
cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hello Chris Waite or CeeDubs (don't know what you prefere),

thank you for your lines. And congratulations for your (and Grahams) boat-design! I will steal some of your ideas for my boat - especaly your mail-hull-design using just 4 strips of plywood is genius! What's the reason/ the idea for the round and flat end? (I understand the reason for the sharp front ;))

Greetings Cello

(and your "Guten Tag" is very polite )
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Cello, see how rapidly I run out of your language....

Now we know each other better what would be a suitable greeting?

The after/back end of 'Katie Beardie' actually tapers, (reasonably quickly) to a point, rather than being 'round', with a stern post to take the rudder fittings.  The underwater hull sections go from the deep sharp forefoot you have noted, rotating to flat in the after/back sections.  This allows the single chine to come away from the stem at the bow/front and gently force the water down, with the idea of ironing it out flat as it leaves the stern.  This is not original, but taken from the International Ten Square Metre Sailing Canoes - one of which I used to sail as a young 'thug':

http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/introduction.html

While I don't expect to see Graham planing down the front of every wave, he did ask for a 'load carrying' hull and to continue the International Canoe tradition seemed a good, simple way of completing the back half of the boat.  It may present rather more surface area than a simple paddle canoe, but has already proved it does load carry and doesn't seem to dig its stern in as I have seen other canoes do.  Paddle and sail together will always be something of a compromise and if you have other requirements, I am sure it would be possible to shove the measurements around to try and accomodate you.

Has Graham sent you the ply cutting plan yet?

Call me anything you like, as long as it's printable

Chris
cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hello Chris,

I was thinking about "stealing IC ideas" for my open-sailing-paddeling-canoe and I'm glad that it seems to work. Graham seems to be very pleased using his boat so your hulldesign works well!
Graham sent me a short mail, he will get in touch with me and I'm not in a hurry.
My ideas:
* ~ 5m long (17ft), <1m wide (37inch) ~50cm high (20 inch)
* 2 cockpits
- a small one in the front for tandem-paddeling, while sailing coverd by ply with "water-shield" "water-protector" (don't know the word)
- a big one (2 meters/7ft) open for 2 people sailing and paddeling; trapezoid to get the water out after capszising
* removable rudder (tiller) and straight center leeboard
* 5m² to ??? (let's see ) (50sqft) sail-area - foresail and mainsail

How long and wide is Katie Beardie?
I'll try to make a hull with freeship an sent you a mail (but it will take some time, I made a download last week and never worked with CAD...)

Thanks and greetings
Cello
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hi Cello.

Katie is 4.55m (15ft) long and has a waterline beam 0.76m (30inches), and about 0.30m (12inches) deep, so quite a bit smaller than you have in mind.

There are no full design drawings , Cee Dubbs provided two sheets each of which represent a standard UK 8ft by 4ft sheet of ply. This is enough to produce the hull.

Decks, Cockpit(s) holds and hatches are at the builder's discretion.
Of course all the dimensions are in inches!

The key instructions are as follows.

 "Check the diagram and these two straight lines with "cut" written at each end, are moderately angled along the board; working symmetrically about the mid-line of the sheet, the cuts start 31" apart at the wide end and reduce to 17" at the narrow end. The 'fair curves' should be made to fit in to end up at right angles to the butt joint, one and a half inches in from the 'cut' lines.  Get this right and you can't possibly fail!”  

Have Fun!
Graham





BrianP BrianP
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Graham and Chris, was the process one of developing the fore and aft cockpit bulkhead shapes after stitching up Katie's hull? Or were these already drawn?

If someone was attempting a Katie build, would these two bulkhead dimensions enable a replication of Katie's shape to be achieved more easily?

Brian
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hi Brian,
The shape of the bulkheads had to be found after the plans were stitched together. I used a temporary bulkhead just about where the planks join to help define the shape, but even then I had to decide in conjunction with Cee Dubbs how much rise of floor there should be and how much flare.  
You are of course right, supplying the measurements of the bulkheads would help make things much easier, however the design of bulkheads, decks and hatches is at the discretion of the builder who may decide to place them wherever he or she likes.

I have to confess that my planks are not exactly as the designer intended, and the only place I'd be confident of taking the measurements off Katie is on the fore and aft plank join.

This is Designer and Builder looking for two inches that seem to have wandered off.

 
cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hi everyone,

I'll try to construct my boot (using some of Cee Dubs/Grahams ideas) in freeship (I hope, the HBBR isn't so oldfashiond, that I'm banned for using the computer in stead of paper  - I adore Cee Dubs for the paperwork!) - than I can print the bulkhead as I want. I'll give you a look, after that work is finished!

Geetings Cello
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Get there any way you can Cello

If the computer suits that's fine; it would just take me too long to cyber-up and go there; for something that is already in my head and falls onto the paper when I bend my neck....

Or something

The idea really is man-sized, or exterior-grade 'origami', preceded by cardboard models and I deliberately do not put the bulkheads in until afterwards, as they can then be matched to the most agreeable shape by pushing and pulling the hull around with props and ties, (with Spanish windlasses as necessary).  Also a first float-test, the builder's internal requirements and quite often what wood I have left in the garage:

 

The picture of 'Octavia' about to go for her first swim shows a couple of props at gunwale level and I think there may have been one lower down and further forward in the bow to give a less lean (thin) effect; the forward one came out when that bulkhead went in, but the after one was replaced with something more permanent.  Second, the push and pull story of 'Polly Wee's forefoot is an epic in its own right.

Chris
cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hi Chris,

your words are very interesting - to pull a s&g-boat in a better form after the first swim is a good idea...
But for me, as a "first-time-boat-builder", it might be the best thing to have a (hopefully good) plan and to build it using that plan.

Cello
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

I did some work with freeship:



It's develpable in two sheets, about 5 meters long,...
the deckdesign is not so important

What do you think about th hull??

Thank you for every feedback!
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hi Cello,
Just some initial thoughts, not meant to put you off, just food for thought.

You spoke about having a second cockpit with a hatch for tandem paddling. This will have a critical impact on the trim of the boat.  If the two paddlers are similar weight and spread evenly along the waterline then the boat will trim forward as you have much more buoyancy aft than forward.
I am aware of this because i put the double cockpit on my old canoe Polythene Pam too far aft pulling the bow out of the water. I had to do some serious re-modelling of the deck to turn her into a sailing canoe.
So although you say the deck design isn't important, in fact it is critical.

Secondly be aware that just because the software says the hull patterns are developable, that doesn't mean the ply will actually want to bend that way.  I think you might have problems with that lovely curved stern. The curve might be a bit tight.

So I'd think about making the stern more fine, to reduce the buoyancy and ease the bend in the ply.

I hope that helps.

I'm sure Cee Dubbs will be along soon to disagree with me once he has finished tidying his workshop.

Graham
Sorry about my poor english, but I'm Scottish.
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hi me again.
Is it possible to give us a screen-shot of the Profile View showing the centre of buoyancy and the curve of sectional area, so we can see what's going on.

hint; Project settings, Hydrostatics, check the boxes.

Graham
cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hello Graham

I appreciate every tip and assitance!

You mean this:


I think, I understand your objection of the 2 cockpit problem. BUT: My frontpaddler is much lighter than me and I see, that I have to do good trimming by putting luggage in the back! - better I keep the front wider.

Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Sorry chaps

I don't think very well in cyber, but it seems to me that Graham is right - it's not the design particularly, it's that you are talking about having people in all sorts of different places at different times.  A canoe particularly requires very close attention to how the weight is distributed fore and aft.  I think you would do best to build the hull then take it for a float test and see what happens, but I suspect you will end up with just one cockpit with either one at each end or a single person in the middle.  

Maybe you could draw up the three different crewing options, (one person / two paddling / two sailing), so that we can get a better idea of what you are trying to achieve?

Chris
Port-Na-Storm Port-Na-Storm
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

In reply to this post by cello
Hi, Yes that's what I mean, so the centre of buoyancy is around station 12 just aft of midships, so everything has to balance about that point like a see-saw.
So if you were sailing alone you could probably put your bum a bit further back and then trim the boat with your gear.
If you are paddling with two then you need to slide back a little bit but not too much otherwise your crew will have to go way forward to balance up. If you put all the gear aft then It'll make the situation worse.

I think Cee Dubbs is right the best solution is a fairly big cockpit say 1.5m that you can move around in when sailing and which enables two to sit in tandem when paddling, the front person perhaps with their feet under the foredeck.

I think the centre point of the cockpit needs to go just about where the centre of buoyancy is.

In case you were wondering what a float test looks like.....

cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Hello Chris, hello Graham

The floating-test seems to be cool - I see a big smile in your face

About my cockpit-ideas:

- a big open cockpit in the back 2.2m (7ft) long might be longer / the last 0.5 meter (1.5ft) decked / a 8cm (3 inch) seat board (don't know the word for it - gunwale??) around / at the front-end the leeboard-box / one part of the leeboard-box is a part of the frame ("Spanten") to get the work of the leeboard into the boat

- a closed part, at the end of that (direction front) the mast/rigg

- a small cockpit in the front 1m - depends of the rig and the center of sail (3.5ft) / the first 0.5m (1.5 ft) decked / the cockpit will have a small gunwale / the cockpit will have a waterproof cover just for sailing - for paddletours the frontcockpit is open - the rig is at home


I'll try to draw it and go for a scanner tomorrow

Greetings and thank you very much

Cello
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
cello cello
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

In reply to this post by Chris Waite
Hi folks,

scanner is working, I don't understand freeship well so I decided to use printer&pencil

there we are:


and the hydrostatics



what do you think? Sucessfull to build and test or put it to the bin?

Geets Cello
Sorry for my poor English, I'm not a nativ speaker and school ist far away ;-)
Chris Waite Chris Waite
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Re: hopefully a hbb in the near future

Cello Mein Freund!

Looking at your diagram, it seems very round at the stern and as Graham has said, I wonder if you will be able to persuade the ply to form a shape like this.  Otherwise, I do not see a problem though personally I usually make my bows finer in the hope that they will cut through the waves more easily.

I am not sure that this makes a difference and it may be that it allows the boat to 'pitch', (rock fore and aft), more freely....

Only experiments like yours and mine will tell!

Chris  
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